turtledovefandomcom-20200216-history
Talk:Korea
So sad--everywhere we turn in HT, this great nation is under the heel of its hereditary enemy. Except Worldwar, where they just might be staunch Race supporters. Turtle Fan 06:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC) :Want to add that to the Multiple Ideas page? TR 17:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC) ::I think you just did--and absolutely ruined your chances of election to the Japanese Parliament in the process. Turtle Fan 16:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC) :::It was my snarky little remark about the Race being better overlords than the Japanese, wasn't it? TR 18:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC) ::::That'll do it. Doesn't make it any less true, mind. From time to time visiting Japanese dignitaries in Seoul and elsewhere will express sadness over the suffering their ancestors inflicted on their hosts, and without fail, when they get home their constituents force them to issue retractions. Turtle Fan 03:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC) I was just thinking, it would be nice if HT were to actually involve Korea in something. I could show off my hangeul typing skills. When I saw the concept behind MwIH I had high hopes Kim Il-Seung and Ee Seung-Man would get face time, or at least offstage references. Turtle Fan 23:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC) :As HT has delved more into the Cold War than in prior writings, you might get your wish. TR 23:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC) ::I can hope. Turtle Fan 03:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC) Korea in Southern Victory Japan got into Korea following the Russo-Japanese War because it had directly defeated its main rival for influence in Seoul and because it overran a great deal of territory on the peninsula in its campaigns against Russia (including an amphibious operation against Incheon that was very similar to MacArthur's allegedly unprecedented landing there in 1950). How they were able to conquer Korea following a defeat of Spain, whose holdings (the Philippines, mainly) were in the other direction, is a bit strange. Not that they couldn't have done it, but it would have been harder and it would seem that, with a major foothold in Southeast Asia, they'd be better off going after richer and less defensible colonies like Indonesia. HT seems to have let Asian history follow its course unaltered up until the 1930s at least, and really until GWII; but it's dumb to think "Well, as long as Japan beat someone at around this time, everything would happen the same way." Turtle Fan 07:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :It's worth remembering that Japan was playing games in Korea at the end of the 19th century. Plus, I recall HT connecting the defeat of China with the conquest of Korea. TR 15:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC) ::They were, that's true. The defeat of China allowed Korea to shrug off its status as a Chinese client state and the Japanese were briefly very popular, but it soon became clear the Russians were offering a better deal and Seoul turned to St Petersburg. So much so in fact that most international observers were given the impression that the Hermit Kingdom was incapable of becoming an independent actor on the world stage and lost interest in supporting it. I suppose it's possible that at the end of the First Sino-Japanese War Russia didn't see any reason to bother with Korea and Japan was able to take it uncontested. Turtle Fan 16:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :::There's also the fact that the US was present in OTL, sort of redirecting Japanese expansion away from the Philipines, which in turn led to Japan and Russia wrangling over lots of places, Port Arthur being the most important, and just added to the tensions. In 191, Japan gets to vent its expansionist desires pretty much wherever it wants, so maybe it relinquishes Port Arthur, Russia in turn actually stays out of Korea, and they actually play nice for a while as their interests aren't in direct opposition. TR 17:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC) ::::Could be. They were downright cooperative in GWI, as I recall, with the IJN putting in at Anchorage. They were on the same side in OTL too, of course, but the hard feelings were very much evidence. Might also be that in the real WWI there was very little action of any note taking place in the Pacific, and less still involving Russia. Turtle Fan 20:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC) As HT has delved more into the Cold War than in prior writings, you might get your wish. Well, I missed that one completely. I thought for sure since The Gladiator and the The Valley-Westside War came back-to-back, and MWiH did address Cold War tensions, HT was going to start mining the Cold War for a while. The fact that we saw that all around the time 191 was ending does leave me wondering if HT was at least at one point ready to push that series on. TR 21:32, October 27, 2009 (UTC) :Recall that SA started out as a trilogy and then became a tetralogy. Gizzi always claimed that this was Evidence! that HT was planning to extend the series, because he had turned GW from a tetralogy into a trilogy to make way for AE. Even for him, that's stupid; if shortening a 4-book segment to a 3-book segment means the series overall will get longer, shouldn't extending a 3-book segment to a 4-book segment (the exact opposite, notice) have the opposite meaning? :From there I could see that HT had originally planned a sequel series and realized it wouldn't end so instead stretched out GWII to give the whole thing a proper (snicker) ending. :Also there's that interview he gave saying that the thought of Rebels keeping up the fight after the war ended got him thinking about the Werewolves. Makes sense that, if he wanted to tell that story, he would do so by writing a Werewolf story. That way he wouldn't have to feel constrained by the need to stay true to the established character and story arcs of 191 (not that he seemed to feel particularly burdened by the need to so in the last few 191 books). Also, since he already wanted it influence modern politics, apparently, he'd need to make it a new story, because no one would just pick up the twelfth book in a series and go from there. If they did they'd be hugely confused by everything that was going on (maybe not so much in this series, given how exhaustively the characters kept repeating their back stories) and anyway he had enough trouble forcing 1946 to correspond with 2008 without adding another level on which he'd need to convince us that A=B and B=C so A must equal C. Turtle Fan 22:13, October 27, 2009 (UTC) ::That all makes sense. :::Ahh, you're too kind. :-) Turtle Fan 19:18, October 28, 2009 (UTC) ::On a tangential note: do you think Gizzi has made peace with the idea there will be no more 191 books? TR 18:27, October 28, 2009 (UTC) :::Who cares. As I've been reviewing this series I'm realizing just how fully HT closed off the possibility for more story. The story was about the struggle to reunite North America. Bing, struggle accomplished. Sure the Reb diehards would dispute that, but notice that the Reb POVs all had the chance to take part in the resistance and turned their backs on it. Potter telling the youngster whom Gizzi claimed was Featherston 2.0 that it was a lost cause and he should give it a rest reminded me of what we told Gizzi himself. Like Potter, we were all loyal friends and true of TL-191, even if, again like him, we took issue with the decisions made in directing it during the Second Great War. And like Potter we'd been so badly stung by the failure of the last generation that we just wanted to let it die in peace and move on. Has he come around to our way of thinking? I really never got much of a feel for his personality in a big way that would let me conjecture as to how long he broods over something. Turtle Fan 19:18, October 28, 2009 (UTC) ::::Just an idle thought. I'd just realized it's been two years since IatD, and you referenced him. TR 19:55, October 28, 2009 (UTC) :::::It's intriguing. Turtle Fan 01:51, October 29, 2009 (UTC) Korean AH I recently learned of an interesting film, which I'm going to attempt to find with English subtitles. They posit that in 1910 An Gun-Jeung's attempt on Ito Hirobumi's life was thwarted. No assassination of a former Prime Minister meant no pissed off government in Tokyo, which means they're much milder in pushing their imperial policy. This in turn translates into a drastically reduced interest in expansionism. Such Japanese Empire as there is becomes a respectable member of the family of nations, among other things contributing men and materiel to Allies in the war against Hitler in the 1940s. The film is set in Seoul in 2009. Most Koreans have gotten used to being part of Japan, and since the Japanese aren't exploiting Korea's natural resources and funneling them into the Home Islands, the entire Korean peninsula is a developed, modern, comfortable place. But not everyone has forgotten the nationalist dream, and when a museum exhibit comes to town showcasing artifacts from the peninula's ancient history, we get a story similar in premise, if not in tone, to T2G. We've often spoke of how shitty it must be for Korea in the many HT timelines where the hated enemy gets to hang on well past 1945. Never did I expect a Korean AH writer to be the one to posit that it might not be so bad. (I didn't know there were any Korean AH writers at all, actually, though that's neither here nor there.) Now that I think of it, the Japanese have done that, too. They've got that anime where the British conquered the Home Islands and designated them as "Area 11," and that's not overly dark in tone, either. Turtle Fan 00:19, October 8, 2010 (UTC) Recent edits I don't see any problems with recent edits made by TF. I suggest that when we get the inevitable NK and SK pages, much of what is here will serve as a solid nucleus for each page, and we may wish to edit here if we go that direction. But I don't see much point in moving on that until July, 2015. TR (talk) 18:48, November 9, 2014 (UTC) :I was thinking we might as well create stubs for the two governments, since we've already got red links in there, but no more than that. And even that much I'm not completely wed to. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:27, November 9, 2014 (UTC) TWCE edit "After the end of the war in Europe, The United States and the Soviet Union concluded and alliance against Japan, which might have implications for the future of Korea." I think we'd previously established that we don't much care about what could have happened after the end of TWCE. This should be deleted. TR (talk) 14:51, June 11, 2016 (UTC) :Yes. Turtle Fan (talk) 15:58, June 11, 2016 (UTC) Korea in T2G This can probably go.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 06:50, May 29, 2018 (UTC)